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Catan question - Queue — LiveJournal
September 20th, 2004
02:05 pm

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Catan question
So, the crane. We all know that, yes, you can use it to buy the first-level improvement for free. And, yes, we all know that you can only use it for one improvement (this clarification was made in later editions of Mayfair's rules).

The question I have: suppose you have both cranes in your hand. Can you use both of them to buy a second-level improvement for free (assuming you already have the first-level improvement built)? Why or why not?

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From:mattlistener
Date:September 20th, 2004 11:14 am (UTC)
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What's the text on the card?
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From:queue
Date:September 20th, 2004 11:21 am (UTC)
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I don't have it on me. Anyone?

I'll point out as a side note that the text on the card can make things a bit confusing because of the translation issue. One instance: the engineer card says "You may immediately build a city wall at no cost." There's no need for "immediately" to be in there, and I've seen it cause confusion for first-time players who thought that they could build a city wall as soon as they got the card, regardless of whose turn it was.
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From:surrealestate
Date:September 20th, 2004 11:38 am (UTC)
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I don't know the text offhand, but in my recollection, the wording implies to me that you can't combine more than one. I can't expand on that without the card, though.
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From:theora
Date:September 20th, 2004 12:03 pm (UTC)
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Posted it below :)
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From:treacle_well
Date:September 20th, 2004 12:06 pm (UTC)
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Nice toes.

Yours?
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From:theora
Date:September 20th, 2004 12:13 pm (UTC)
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Thank you :) Yes, my toes. It was taken with a cell phone camera, and the low-resolution fuzziness seems to have lent a warm morning-ey glow. Credit to jaq for taking it.
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From:treacle_well
Date:September 22nd, 2004 08:16 am (UTC)
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Yeah, it's a great photo, even if part of what makes it great is unintentional.
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From:treacle_well
Date:September 20th, 2004 11:28 am (UTC)
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I think not, but without the card and almanac in front of me I can't adequately support that thought.
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From:queue
Date:September 20th, 2004 11:31 am (UTC)
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My version of the almanac gives no help on this question. I'd be interested to see if your version of the alamanc helps any, or if magid's version helps (she has yet another version of the rules, having bought her game very recently).
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From:curly_chick
Date:September 20th, 2004 11:39 am (UTC)
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I do not have the card in front of me so bear with this.

I believe you can use two cranes to get a second grade upgrade (assuming you have a first level).

If you can use one card to get a first level, it follows that you don't need to have another commodity card in your hand, to use the crane. Using that logic, it would follow that you should simply be able to use two cranes even without a commodity in your hand as well for the second upgrade.

Do you see any distinction for a second level upgrade with no commodities in hand than a first level with no commodities in hand?
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From:queue
Date:September 20th, 2004 11:45 am (UTC)
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I'm going to refrain from offering my opinion until I hear what other people have to say.
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From:theora
Date:September 20th, 2004 11:57 am (UTC)

Card and almanac text

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From Kevin's set:

The card: "When building a city improvement this turn, (abbey, town hall, etc.) you may pay one less commodity."

The almanac: "This ability lasts only for the duration of the turn in which the card was played. The advantage applies only to city improvements (marketplaces, town hall, etc.) and not to building cities themselves. The players must still pay the normal resource cost for building a city."
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From:queue
Date:September 20th, 2004 12:00 pm (UTC)

Re: Card and almanac text

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As a side note, this almanac wording is why we used to play that you paid one less for any city improvements you built that turn. Subsequent editions of the rules changed the almanac wording to preculde that (I believe I first saw this in treacle_well's set.
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From:mattlistener
Date:September 20th, 2004 03:14 pm (UTC)

Re: Card and almanac text

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The subsequent edition rewritten almanac wording may also bear on the question of whether two cranes can affect one improvement.
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From:magid
Date:September 20th, 2004 03:26 pm (UTC)

Re: Card and almanac text

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Data point: My almanac wording is the same as the one Theora cited above.
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From:queue
Date:September 20th, 2004 04:10 pm (UTC)

Re: Card and almanac text

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That's weird. I'm pretty sure treacle_well has a different almanac wording. I would have thought yours would be a later edition of the rules than hers, and would thus have the same updated wording. Weird.
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From:treacle_well
Date:September 20th, 2004 12:12 pm (UTC)
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Still without up-to-date almanac info, I think my logic goes something like this.

Basically my sense of game play is that you play one card, finish the action, and then can play another card. So, I think in order to play the 2nd Crane card you have to have already completed play with the first. That means that you don't have the opportunity to "add" the "discount" of the 2nd card directly to the action of the first.
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From:queue
Date:September 20th, 2004 12:15 pm (UTC)
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Basically my sense of game play is that you play one card, finish the action, and then can play another card.

How does the merchant fleet fit into your sense of game play? I don't have the exact quote, but the idea is that it gives you the ability to make 2-for-1 trades for the rest of your turn. Obviously you'd be able to play other cards in between making 2-for-1 trades.
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From:treacle_well
Date:September 20th, 2004 12:18 pm (UTC)
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Good point.
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From:wildraven
Date:September 21st, 2004 02:22 pm (UTC)

Merchant Fleet

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Since the Merchant Fleet makes a special point that you may use it for all trades that turn, my thought would be that this is not true of other cards.

Heck, I'm not even sure I agree that the crane allows you to make the level 1 improvement for free. I begrudgingly accept it, but I'm not sure that's what they initially meant.
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From:treacle_well
Date:September 22nd, 2004 05:25 am (UTC)

Re: Merchant Fleet

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from my later reply:

Text from my C&K almanac.

This ability lasts only for the duration of the turn. You may only purchase one improvement (market, town hall, etc.) for this reduced price, and you must pay the normal price for building cities themselves. You may use this ability to buy a 1st level improvement (the market, the town hall, or the abbey) for free.
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From:wildraven
Date:September 22nd, 2004 02:00 pm (UTC)

Re: Merchant Fleet

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Ah... My Almanac did not say that.

OK, since the rules allow the a 1st level upgrade without paying anything other than the card itself, I would say that logic would then allow the second level upgrade to occur with 2 cards. (3rd level with 2 cards and one commodity, etc)
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From:treacle_well
Date:September 22nd, 2004 05:23 am (UTC)
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Text from my C&K almanac. This may also have some bearing on wildraven's comment.

This ability lasts only for the duration of the turn. You may only purchase one improvement (market, town hall, etc.) for this reduced price, and you must pay the normal price for building cities themselves. You may use this ability to buy a 1st level improvement (the market, the town hall, or the abbey) for free.
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From:queue
Date:September 22nd, 2004 05:26 am (UTC)
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This almanac text makes it pretty clear to me that you can use to cranes to get a free 2nd level building.

In any case, that's what my house rule is going to be.
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From:treacle_well
Date:September 22nd, 2004 05:31 am (UTC)
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It doesn't make it that clear to me, but it certainly doesn't contraindicate it, so I wouldn't whine about it being anybody's house rule.

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From:treacle_well
Date:September 22nd, 2004 07:36 am (UTC)
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Um. Contradict. I've obviously been reading way too many drugs.
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